fair music - Interview with Hartwig Kirner

An order of the day

Hartwig Kirner, managing director of Fairtrade Austria, on the market in Austria, political reality and global networking.

Can you describe the activities of Fairtrade Austria in a few sentences?

Of course. Fairtrade Austria is both a development policy-oriented NGO and simultaneously a labelling organization that certifies companies with very clear guidelines, thus an organization that provides a neutral, independently controlled  label for companies in Austria.

What role does Austria play in comparison with big markets?

Austria is of course considered as a small market by world standards. However, regarding the per capita consumption of fair trade products, Austria ranks among the top 4 worldwide. This means we are up front in per capita sales of fair trade products in this country.

Is there an explanation for this triumph of fair trade products in Austria?

I believe the partners  in Austria are very committed and there is a really good range of fair trade products for the consumer.

On the other hand, the consumers are significantly interested in these products.

What are the biggest problems in introducing fair trade products to the people?
The crucial question is whether we can win companies as potential partners who are willing to offer the fair trade label. The demand might be large, but the offer has to be right. It is therefore necessary to raise awareness, that there are world trade structures that are not working very well, and it is up to us to have a high quality concept and offer this concept.

Have the conditions of the market changed in the last decade?
Yes, absolutely. If you compare the existing interest for these subjects with the situation ten years ago, worlds have surely changed. The sensitivity, how people view these issues and deal with them, is very different now. Both consumers and entrepreneurs have become far more sensitive.

Would you say that there has been a significant change in the general awareness on production and circulation of the products?

Yes, I would.

Let's take a look at the legal and political conditions. In your work, do you feel rather encouraged or rather restricted by law and politics ?

That is a difficult question. I think that the will to change things is consistently articulated at the political level and there is hardly anyone who does not want to change things, at least a bit in some areas, but it always fails on the actual implementation. However, it doesn't make much sense to show the intention when the required budgets for the implementation are simply not provided. Our products are not the cheapest. If you only shop for lower prices, you can't expect to get products manufactured with ethical principles of sustainability. It doesn't work that way.

If you look to the future: Do you think things will change as much in the next ten years as they did in the past ten years?
I think the future will show a very positive development, because we live in an age in which the sensitivity for sustainable development is particularly high due to daily politics. From food scandals over nuclear disasters to the economic crisis - they were all events that shook up the people. If we look toward the current energy politics and the proposal from Germany to phase out nuclear power, it is pretty clear that, if somebody would have said this ten years ago, he would have been laughed at and called insane. Today this is political reality. And a lot more will happen in this direction. I believe now is exactly the right time for change, because the people are in the spirit of greater changes, but we are still far away from our ambitious goals, such as the CO2 pollution. We all know that we need to change something. This applys just the same to raw materials: There is a need to provide decent living conditions for the farmers so that they can continue to provide us with decent raw materials - especially as the demand for these commodities will rise. China, Brazil and India are additional demanding countries for products, which we currently obtain alone. This means that the demand situation in the markets is certainly precarious. It is therefore a need of the hour to provide the producers with the appropriate living conditions so that they will be interested to produce these goods in the future.

You are familiar with the fair music campaign. What do you think? Does this initiative make sense, does it have a chance to establish itself?
We have had discussions, but I am by no means an expert. However, I generally find it an interesting approach to provide a certificate, because I am sure there is room for improvement in the music market, especially for the smaller parties. But it is not my place to make a statement on the campaign. This is not my field of competence. To be able to really have an evaluative opinion, I'd have to be far more involved with the matters of the campaign.

Do you think that in order to remove existing imbalances on the labor market, there could be parallels and synergies, so that the initiative fair music could provide the system with an effective alternative?
I am - but this is my personal opinion - convinced that  something has to change in the music market in the foreseeable future. I am a amateur, but I find it appalling what I read in the press. It is obvious to act as if the world has not changed. Criminalizing consumers on the one hand and on the other hand denying consumers access to new, existing technologies or still relying on outdated models is fatal. From my amateur perspective, musicians also do not seem to generate the lion's share of revenues. Regarding the use of funds, the order of the day would be to provide fairness and transparency.

Are there networking tendencies within the world of fair trade?
Absolutely. We live in a globalized world where you can't make a big difference on your own. The fair trade organizations are also globally connected. Austria is part of a network with many other organizations, as well as with various stakeholders such as fair trade shops.
Many players are incredibly important to be linked to. This does not only apply to fair trade, but also to development organizations and trade unions. All organizations who want to operate globally have to be globally connected.

Is the balance of interests between the different organizations difficult or easy, since you all want the same thing?
It is anything but easy, because of the big cultural differences. The understanding of the own involvement is very different from region to region. Someone who was involved in Africa for a certain topic has a completely different approach and completely different perspective than someone who was engaged in Europe or the U.S. for the same thing. On the other hand, this exchange is immensely productive for our own work. So one has to clearly see the positive sides, but it is definitely a challenge. One has to compromise and be open for debates. This kind of networking is hardly ever easy.

Do you think that the capitalist system and the resulting market, which rely on mass production and price wars, are doomed to fail?
A difficult question. Many academics have racked their brains over this. I personally believe, without wanting to get involved in an ideological debate, that there is no end in sight. Until now, mankind has always managed to establish changes that led to growth. However, we must ask ourselves the fundamental question: can we continue like this or should we engage in another direction.

Don't you think it is strange that when you want to be proactive against something, because it is clear to you that this structure is not going to end, but it also can not go on this way, you always get pushed into a certain ideological direction?
Critique of capitalism is ideologically tainted, no question. Therefore I also prefer to speak about market economy than capitalism. And fair trade is a market-based model in which conscious consumers choose to buy a particular product. On the other side, everyone in the chain should also be able to gain profit. That's the fair trade model, which I believe will be the successful model in the long term. But one should not expect fair trade to set great socio-political directions. This is beyond our horizon of possibilities. But you can very well observe that fair trade helps to change opinions and makes it easier for people to take up system-critical positions. When I look at some of the cocoa, banana and flower industries, there have been massive changes in terms of the legal situation of those involved. The farmers have become more confident, have organized themselves and have managed to make great corporations rethink. Today it is clear that the methods of the 70s of the last century will no longer succeed. But we must also be careful that we do not set up goals that are impossible to achieve. Fair trade wants to bring about socio-political changes, but with the methods of the market economy.

Do you think that a certification, like fair trade, would also be conceivable for the music industry?
As I said, that is not something I can judge. But I think it will be incredibly difficult, because the structures in the music market are simply different.
On the other hand, I believe that it is high time for something to happen, especially for those artists who do not benefit from the existing system, and that's probably the overwhelming majority. I know many musicians who play music as a hobby and are glad when someone listens to their record and don't complain when their music is downloaded for free.
The question is also if it isn't already too late for a new start, and if it wouldn't be better to reform the music business as a new system from scratch. My personal opinion is that it is about time.

If you look to the future, what do you wish for in the market economy?

I think we were already once there and should get back again: that we do not give the market full freedom and let it get out of hand. The market only works with given structures. And some of these structures are simply not given.

There are too many industries where oligopolistic conditions prevail, ie a few companies dictate the market and face a majority of small providers. The market simply does not work with such different power relations. I think it is important to create legal frameworks, and to establish private initiatives such as fair trade and perhaps fair music and extend them, so that people are provided with the the opportunity to consume differently.

Thank you for your time.

Interview: Markus Deisenberger